Windows 11 Has Made the 'Clean Windows Install' an Oxymoron – Slashdot

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This is called: The natural result of greed.
OneDrive also. Badly designed. It doens’t “back up” your files, it moves them to the cloud. But it doesn’t tell you this clearly. If your network isn’t super fast you will notice lag in accessing some files. If they network is down, then the files aren’t local and you cannot see them! I went and carefully put some files on the local drive so they’d be available remotely away from internet access, and OneDrive copied them to the cloud and then deleted the local copies so I had no access to them when I needed them.
A friend bitched last week that he lost a lot of files due to OneDrive. He thought he was just deleting them from the cloud but he ended up deleting the only copy.
The Cloud is Stupid people! I’ve got a terabyte drive, why do I need to back up to a smaller free cloud from a notoriously unreliable company? Why do I want it in the cloud anyway? There’s no purpose! I am NOT going to be sharing my source code repo with my smart phone. And why let a third party company decide what to copy and delete automatically, especially a notoriously braindead and short sighted company? And you know this notoriously unethical company is doing this just to look at your files.
At work, OneDrive is the official backup method. I refuse to use it. I have an encrypted removeable hard drive for this. It’s faster and more reliable.
And why do you not have one drive setup to store copies locally? It is a setting. One we ise at work so one drive is just the sync client.
We use one drive and sharepoint at work. Since then we atopped losing files. And no longer have to deal with local nas drive.
Hidden bonus the admins can undo changes like file deletion if they need to.
Now one drive and sharepoint should be intergrated better
Because I didn’t know what OneDrive was! I was not warned that it was going to do this. It was not the logical thing to have for a default, and as an engineer I occasionally naively assume that computer tools are logical. I did change the settings, after the fact.
Sharepoint has a long and glorious history of being the most hated Microsoft tool, loved solely by IT admins. If you can find your files without using a bookmark, then Sharepoint has failed in its mission.
A lot of cloud stuff sometimes works that way. I downloaded some podcasts to the Apple podcast app, in preparation for a long drive; 12 hours later I go on the drive and they’ve all been deleted. (I got a warning this month that I was getting close to my bandwidth cap, mostly due to turning on cellular data to download podcasts on the road because it keeps deleting them)
The assumption is that everyone has a big fat broadband, ignorant that some of us are in America instead of Europe. And that internet is

It’s stupid interface decisions. . . . . This is not greed just stupid UI design that adds nothing and gets in the way.
The biggest problem is that Microsoft has too many people and they need something to do, so you end up with all sorts of stupid changes being made. Busy work. Just changing things for sake of change. And the people in charge are obviously incompetent, or else they would never approve hundreds of stupid, pointless changes that make things worse instead of better.

I’m not a fan of Elon Musk but he did one good thing when he bought Twitter, he got rid of thousands of people who never should have been hire
Greed?
Windows XP Home which was shunned by many as it was really barebones used to cost $100, the Pro version cost $200.
When was the last time you paid for a Windows license? Microsoft has allowed people to upgrade for free from Windows 7 all the way to Windows 11. Windows costs a ton to develop and maintain. Windows 10 and 11 are far more secure and advanced OS’es than any Windows release before them and come preinstalled with an AV solution which routinely rivals professional products as evidenced by
When was the last time you paid for a Windows license?
Never. I’ve used Linux since 1994 and prior to that, DOS.

OK, these whole five or so nag screens can be dismissed in under a minute which is done once for the entire OS lifetime.
You must be using one of the LTSB/LTSC releases.
If you define “OS lifetime” to mean “a 5-6 month SaaS feature release cycle” then yes, you only have to click through those nag screens and configure your custom UI settings in Windows 10/11 once in the OS lifetime.
In XP/7, there were major Service Pack releases everyone knew could radically change the OS. Accordingly, lots of people chose to decline the Service Pack roll-up installation and instead only install the individual security/stability updates until
To get a ‘clean’ Windows today you’d need the server version.
It was obvious after NT.
It was obvious before that, too.
that even if you paid, you can _still_ be considered to be the product.
All “paying” does is prove you’re gullible.

that even if you paid, you can _still_ be considered to be the product.
How many people pay for Windows, though? The fees charged to computer makers to pre-install Windows are very small, and upgrades are basically unlimited (which was not the case in the past).
What’s going on here is that Microsoft has changed their business model for Windows. They used to make money by selling the OS, but they’re shifting to selling services around the OS. Why they’re changing their model is an interesting question, one I don’t have an answer for.
There’s also the two hours of downloading and installing updates.
A friend just bought a new computer and we did this yesterday. On the other hand, Ubuntu was pretty much done installing but the time I entered a username and password to create the account.
I wish Windows had an option to generate an ISO image with all the latest patches, so one could just install the OS, during the install process, have it load all the updates, and call it done, so when the OS boots, it will require a relatively few amount of fixes. Ubuntu fetches patches and is ready to go on the first reboot, although I do an `apt update && apt -y full-upgrade` to ensure that it is completely up to date before I throw the box into a patch manager. Of course, the H1/H2 releases sor
Also, these ISO images don’t work.
I don’t use Windows. But two friends wanted me to help them build a Windows computer, so I figured I’d give it a go. I downloaded a win11 ISO, used one of the standard Linux tools to burn it to a boot USB, and tried to do the install.
It booted into a win11 installer (yay, the boot disk worked), asked some question, then told me that some “media driver was missing” and directed me to put in another USB drive with the driver.
What the heck? Why do I need drivers for this? (It
In my experience the default Windows installer only supports USB2 in many cases.
The best way to install Windows 11 is to use a USB flash drive and Rufus. Rufus is a Windows app that will transfer the Windows 11 ISO to a flash drive. You can also tweak the installation to not create an online Microsoft account.
You can also load up some basic software on the flash drive, like Firefox, so that you don’t need to use Edge to download it. I’d recommend Chocolatey or winget package managers, but they both seem to suck quite a lot.
During install when it asks you for your region, select “Englis
This exists in many forms but they all require some work ahead of time. If you use the Microsoft Media Creation Tool you do get the latest “big” update rolled in (which for 10 and 11 is 2H22)
I do wish the MCT was updated say, monthly or quarterly as even using the latest version you have a year of updates to apply but it’s not like you always have to start from scratch. If you’re on 2H22 already going through the update is far less than hour for me usually and you can do the other fresh install stuff whil
This is quite exaggerated.
On modern HW, Windows updates and all drivers are normally fetched and installed in under 15 minutes and it’s a fully automatic at that (a reboot or two might be required). Remember 15 years ago you had to painstakingly either install drivers from a slow CD/DVD disk or Google for them with with a varying degree of success. And more often than not Windows 10/11 install all the drivers automatically meaning you don’t have to install anything else whereas OEM drivers are often bundl
You’ll spend more than 15 minutes trying to figure out how to install without having a Microsoft account. WHY? I don’t need it, especially as I only ever use Windows in a VM on my Mac to verify Windows-specific parts of our software.
It takes you 15 minutes to figure out how to not have your VM connected to the internet? The fuck?

You’ll spend more than 15 minutes trying to figure out how to install without having a Microsoft account. WHY? I don’t need it, especially as I only ever use Windows in a VM on my Mac to verify Windows-specific parts of our software.
Simple, you just make sure the machine is not connected to the internet. You can then set the OS up with a local account and not get nagged to create a Windows account after reconnecting. Just did that with two new HP computers the other day for a friend who did not have a MS account. However if you want to get something from the Microsoft Store, you will have to have one unfortunately.
Right, but you already knew that lying to your computer that you had no internet access was the only way to bypass the Microsoft account thing. You already knew the answer, but it takes people who don’t know the answer a bit of time to figure it out, especially when they’re used to software that doesn’t have an adversarial or at least exploitative relationship with the people who use it.
If someone asks if you want to have sex, you should just be able to say “no thanks”. You shouldn’t need to lie and say that you don’t have genitalia.

You’ll spend more than 15 minutes trying to figure out how to install without having a Microsoft account. WHY? I don’t need it, especially as I only ever use Windows in a VM on my Mac to verify Windows-specific parts of our software.
Simple, you just make sure the machine is not connected to the internet.
That would make the driver download process very quick indeed.
On Win XP the drivers had to be on a floppy designated A:
interesting, I installed Lubuntu and first thing it did after rebooting was spend almost an hour updating, then when I went into the software center there was another 16 ready to go
MS have long understood they do not need to address this, as their users are easily addicted to the “slap in the face with a wet fish”
By ~two decades ago, we had proper terms for that: “adware”, “spyware”, “crapware/shovelware”. Now that kind of behaviour is included right in the OS…
Back in the days, our response was obvious: immediate deletion of such software, and investigation how could the infestation happen.
Why not reintroduce that rule, and make a 100% hard rule: boycott anything that includes such kinds of malware? So no Windows, OSX, Ubuntu, non-degoogled Android, …

Because I’ve been installing Windows for my friends for decades
Why? If it’s so great then why sign yourself up for these headaches? It’s flawless and easy to use. Why would anyone need your assistance?

I literally do nothing post install. It just works
Yeah and if I set up someone else’s computer I wouldn’t dick around disabling MS malware for the same reason I wouldn’t install an OS on another person’s computer: I don’t want to be support for life for someone who is too dumb to get through the Windows installer.
When I set up my own mother’s computer I even paid out th
I had to setup a computer with Windows 11 and it was hell. No easy way to create a local account only (because in Microsoft security design, you need to ask for Microsoft account password when you setup a computer for someone else). And once you finish the pain of choosing between being “spy a lot” or “spy quite a lot”, you end up having to remove all those applications you never wanted.
Does it still allow local accounts if you disable the network interface?

Does it still allow local accounts if you disable the network interface?
Yes.
Because local accounts can’t use OneDrive, so it makes Microsoft sad that they have to work harder to spy on all your files.
My home Windows Pro 11 has a local account. Probably because I forced that when first installing and they changed the rules later. If I ever have to puwt W11 on my mother’s computer I will refuse to use a Microsoft Account, it’s a broken feature.
When I first installed W11 last year, I used an account because I thought it would help in migrating. It only made things worse. So after

It’s even worse now. iirc, they completely removed local accounts unless it’s an enterprise license.
Nope. Local account is still good if you leave system disconnected from the internet during setup.
This also works if you are connected to the internet:
On the “Oops, you’ve lost internet connection” or “Let’s connect you to a network” page, use the “Shift + F10” keyboard shortcut. In Command Prompt, type the OOBEBYPASSNRO command to bypass network requirements on Windows 11 and press Enter.
They ventilated their users?
Not that I like installing yet another tool, but here we have real need.
“Cleanup tool to clean up after you cleaned up” or something.
How do enterprise admins cope?
They just don’t, and ignore the crapware and stuff that will stay on their company devices?
Or are certain Windows licence types protected from this?
They don’t. Businesses pay through the teeth to get “enterprise licenses” for Windows 11, which is a pure install without all the garbage. Normal people cannot even buy the enterprise version. But I suspect there are a growing number of powershell scripts to strip the bload and turn a normal install into something more like enterprise.
I am not sure you can do this during install, but after install you can remove your microsoft account from the login and it becomes a normal local login. But it will contin

They don’t. Businesses pay through the teeth to get “enterprise licenses” for Windows 11, which is a pure install without all the garbage. Normal people cannot even buy the enterprise version. But I suspect there are a growing number of powershell scripts to strip the bload and turn a normal install into something more like enterprise.
Yes, there are several third-party programs and scripts that can unfuck many (but not all) of the things that Microsoft has fucked. It would be nice if we didn’t have to do that, but at least we have that option available.

Not that I like installing yet another tool, but here we have real need. “Cleanup tool to clean up after you cleaned up” or something.
The funny thing is, Windows has a program called “Cleanmgr.msc”. Run it and it shows you all the unnecessary files you can delete., especially all the crap left behind after doing an update.
This only appears to be included with server products.
enterprise only GPO’s let you trun off stuff but you need have an enterprise SKU on each workstation to really pull it off.
I’ve just looked and the Windows computer I am using at my company has Xbox Console Companion and Xbox Game Bar, besides solitary games.
My company managed to catch all the games and the Console Companion. We still have the Xbox Game Bar, though.
May IT groups are firmly devoted to the Redmond cult. If Microsoft offers a mediocre solution then IT will demand that it is the only applicaiton allowed in that category. If you have an application that Microsoft does not compete with, then just wait a few months and there will be a pitiful cloud based alternative showing up and your remote IT team on the far side of the planet will want you to use this.
Enterprise isn’t even in reach of small business users, and Pro is stuck with most of the limitations of the Home edition (spyware). Even Enterprise edition, catering to people who use a computer for a living, treats you like you were a moron.

How do enterprise admins cope?
Enterprise Windows is essentially a different critter than home Windows;
Yes. The enterprise version of Windows doesn’t have all of these problems, but the average person cannot (legally) get it. You can buy it but you have to buy a minimum of 25 licenses.
Also does the very same things, although it was easy to setup a local account.
I didn’t installed Windows 11 yet to tell how much mandatory is to sign-in in your MS account.
Anyway, I’ll stay with Win 10 (“good” Windows?) as long as I can.
I think if you yank the network cable out and install from a flash drive it will still let you create a local account.
Breaking news: ice is cold.
Modern games are just as as bad, especially if you don’t play the game regularly and have hours to devote to the activity. I bought MS Flight Simulator 2020 but I only have time to play it once in a while (a couple times a month at most). But it’s essentially unplayable for me because every time I fire it up I find I must download and install a multi-GB update first. So I tell it to update and walk away; maybe I can play another time. Then a week or two later I think I might try it again. Nope. Another update. And repeat. People complain about this on the msfs forums, but the answer is always, tough luck, we’re developing.
Looks like for casual play X-Plane is the way to go. But maybe it’s just as bad.
That Final Fantasy urban legend was debunked a long time ago.
And this is the danger of simply accepting what you see on the internet when a real simple Internet search will give you the actual truth.
I occasionally help other people with their Windows machines. Cleaning all the unwanted cr@p up – only to have some of it reappear after the next major update.
Really, they couldn’t make it clearer that they consider your PC to be *their* machine. Businesses can keep it (business installs seem to be saner), but consumers really need to stop buying Windows machines…
I dread installing the next major Windows update. As in the past, the update could install optional components like telemetry that MS deems as “vital”. I think the one that removed Internet Explorer defaulted Edge as the system browser. Instead of the simple “use other browser as default” in the past, it required me to change the default software for each filetype like HTML, XML, etc.
Updates also changes settings. For example, I do not have an Xbox so I disabled Xbox Game Bar as it would annoy me with popups and notifications when I was playing a game (that most of the time was not available on the Xbox). A major update not only re-enabled it, it changed it to where it ignored the main setting of “disabled”. Now “disabled” meant “running in background” as a service which means the notifications came back.
0. Use Rufus (https://rufus.ie/en/) to create a bootable Windows 11 installer that handles steps 1-3 for you if desired; run through the Windows install process.
1. During the initial run, hit Shift+F10, then type “oobebypassnro”. This will cause a reboot. Also, disconnect from the internet.
2. During the second run, state that you ‘don’t have internet’, and you want to ‘continue with a limited setup’. This will allow you to set up a local account.
3. During the customization screen, select ‘no’ to all of the options.
4. When you get to a desktop, open Edge. Each of the initial setup screens has a low-contrast close button; use them. Go to www.ninite.com and download Chrome/Firefox, maybe 7zip and Notepad++ or whatever other things are needed (.net frameworks are also helpful if running older software).
Open Chrome/Firefox and go here: https://community.spiceworks.c… [spiceworks.com] . It works on Windows 11 and still gets rid of most of the core annoyances and appy-apps, needless scheduled tasks, and so on. Reboot.
5. Download this awesome application, run it as admin, and click through the desired checkboxes: https://www.w10privacy.de/engl… [w10privacy.de] .
6. You’ll probably need to set Windows Defender to exclude the Hosts File from detection; it’ll reset it by default based on the telemetry blocking from step 5 if you implemented it.
7. Go to Settings->Apps->Default Apps and set your preferred default browser and PDF reader.
8. If you’re adventurous and loathe the Windows 11 Taskbar and Start Menu, install ExplorerPatcher: https://github.com/valinet/Exp… [github.com] . Classic Shell and OpenShell also work to bring back a useful, ad-free start menu. NOTE: some recent Windows Updates have caused issues with EP; it’s a bit of a cat-and-mouse game that is fixed with an uninstall/reinstall, but it is a pain to resolve if the need arises.
It’s absolutely abhorrent that it requires third party utilities and shell scripts to make Windows 11 vaguely tolerable…but this config has been viable for me thus far.
This is why my standard answer when asked for help setting up a new Windows machine is, “Sorry, you are on your own.”
It’s a damned shame, but what used to be a simple job now takes hours and the results are never satisfactory. It’s just not worth the time and trouble.
I’ll keep running Windows 7 in a virtual machine until Microsoft pries it out of my cold dead fingers.
Ever tried setting up an iPhone or iPad without an iCloud account?
Ever tried using an iPhone or iPad for any period of time without subscribing to iCloud? You will max out your free 10GB in about 5 minutes (first time your device backs up) then it will nag you to subscribe to the paid tier in perpetuity after that.
I never subscribed to icloud. I just use nextcloud and it works just fine. There are numerous hosting providers and you can buy additional backblaze B2 space cheaply.
You’re totally ignoring my point.
In other words, using Windows today is much like browsing the Internet without adblock.
Or, slashdot’s “amplify” ad spam which takes up 1/3 of the browser window.
Horrendous. I guess users got so used to the malware/popup experience that Microsoft thought they should integrate it for all users.
I’ve got to wonder how many millions if not billions of productive hours are lost annually to this kind of thing. It should be illegal to have “mandatory click-through value added” features on a paid product.
This is the
No oxy, just a moron that doesn’t understand how to use the install manifest.
Remember the “Active Desktop” or whatever it was back in the 90s that had like, Warner cartoon characters on it or something?
Sounds like it’s back, except that it’s truly malicious now.
Also, AFAIK they’re still on with this crippled “Home edition” nonsense. That always pissed me off, and is even more exasperating now that a lot of people work from home.
And listen up, MS. I’m not your typical “M$ is the enemy” Slashdotter. I actually liked Windows up to 8. You’re losing Me. ME. You’re making money hand
Fortunately, there are some things that can clean up the mess. I use Win-Debloat-Tools [github.com] on an instance that’s just been installed in a VM or on a spare machine. Next, create a PE build Custom Installer. Here’s an older reference on doing that, [elevenforum.com] but it still works.
I use this for targeting Win11 VMs mostly.
There are other options:
OpenBSD is a perfectly viable alternative, and Devuan is not bad if you do want Linux.
Newsflash: it’s not 1997. People don’t think in terms of ‘OS’ versus ‘Application’ anymore. They want their computers to work, you know, out of the box, for what they use computers for.
And for a lot of people, that’s Office, or games, or cloud storage access.
And nobody is doing anything about it. Windows + Office + Xbox. 2 of those have been staples for a LONG time.
They want to spy on you, no other reason. Incidentally, when you change too much hardware and you need to reactivate your license, that only works with an MS account. Probably illegal.
This is what I like about Linux (Mint). It does nothing until the end user tells it to do something, and then it only does that one thing. It doesn’t think it knows more than you or what you want to do.
You tell it, it does it. That’s it.
It’s Linux. Choose another distro. Some, like Slackware, will let you choose through groups of software, if you don’t want to install everything. Even if you want Ubuntu because of the availability of packages, there are some derivatives that offer minimal installation. By the way, Ubuntu is mostly for desktop users, who most likely than not will use office software a and a web browser.
Using dd on a solid state drive is a bad idea. Nearly all of them support secure erase features. It takes seconds.
Just use this to activate any new copies of Windows. https://massgrave.dev/ [massgrave.dev]
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